Wir veröffentlichen ein Wortprotokoll: Justizkommissar Reynders zur Frage, wie es gelingen kann, den Einsatz von Staatstrojanern zu verbieten oder zu kontrollieren
Okay, good afternoon colleagues, good to see you all again for the continuation of our PEGA-meeting, which already started yesterday afternoon. And I welcome very much, to start the afternoon session with the executive vice President, Valdis Dombrovskis, Commissioner for Trade. In the work of the committee and in the draft report and recommendation, there has been a lot of discussion also on the trade aspects of spyware.
As you know, the dual use regulation harmonises the rules and supports the consistent application of export controls in the EU. It allows national competent authorities and all EU exporters to follow the same rulebook and to control the same list of dual use items, including software and technology.
As I said, improvement of a new dual use regulation is about more transparency, about licensing decisions by national authorities. Under the old dual use regulation, member states were only requested to report about cases where they refused export requests, so therefore a commission had little visibility on authorizations granted by member states competent authorities. The new regulation strengthens provisions related to annual reporting under the regulation.
I have a couple of questions to you in in random order. First question is, how does this work in practice? Because in one of the replies you sent me to one of my written questions, you said member states are primarily responsible. Which is true.
And a final question: The United States are a lot more determined when it comes to fighting, you know, illegitimate use of spyware, commercial spyware, an illegitimate trade in and they’ve just yesterday adopted new rules. Now that concerns mainly imports, but are you in touch with the American authorities to see if it is possible to align the policies? Because they say that they want to create an international ecosystem for the trade in in spyware.
On capacity, as mentioning obviously the focus, especially last year and also early this year, was on sanctions against Russia and export controls in this context. But one can say that this really has been exceptional year from this regard. Even so, currently we still need to focus on anti-circumvention and other aspects.
Thank you very much. Thank you, executive vice president, for being here and giving us being here and giving us an overview. And I have two questions.
There are many different producers within the European Union. Just to give you an example: In recent years in Australia, the authorities were made aware of a product and company only because Microsoft detected a number of security gaps in the software sold.
And the last questions is the human rights considerations. So you said the current dual use regulation has human rights considerations, but it’s on the member States to assess this human rights considerations for exports.
So. Then as regards this point you raised well, was it it makes sense that there are 27 different member states doing the assessment on export controls, including human rights consideration. Well, this is what is a regulation forsees. So the coalition forces and its member states export control authorities, which are taking those decisions. I was giving you a bit initially as a historical overview how this export control system was developed, how it came to the EU level.
So correspondingly, it’s this aggregated information which you are going to get on in the annual report and that obviously as European Commission we are insisting with Member States to have as granular and as detailed information as possible, while Member States once again may be invoking some of some limitations on national security grounds, so on not disclosing commercially sensitive information.
You remember that this internal secretary was spying on the the leaders of the armed forces. And what happened in Greece is that the prime minister was spying on the leader of the chief of staff. On the chief of staff. You remember that day the general secretary was spying on his relatives, for instance, his sister and, well, the Greek prime minister was spying on his sister. You remember? He was spying on the general secretary or he owned his nephew and well, Mr. it was fine.
Well, this a comparison of US. Well, we were discussing extensively, so we are not necessarily following the same legal base. So I would not describe the situation as hopeless because we have two layers of defence. We cannot completely dismiss what the member states are doing is they are export control national authorities, which has helped to implement as a regulation.
EU law does not apply to cases where public authorities directly access the data, so not the telecom operator and process them for genuine national security purposes, which is a different issue than law enforcement. An important question is in this debate is therefore the delegation between the application of EU law and national rules on national security.
In conclusion, based on your final report and on our own fact gathering will decide on the most appropriate way forward. I want to say that in the last discussions I have had with some that opposition authorities or independent authorities in relation with this kind of situation in some member States and on the basis of the response that we have received from Member States, I am sure that we will have to examine if it’s needed to come with a legislative proposal at the EU level.
And finally, last but not least, what about the internal inquiry in the European Commission? Because I have to say that we are quite dissatisfied with the replies we got from the Commission. We send a long list of questions and the answers we got was we cannot reply this because of matters of security. But the Commission, with all due respect, cannot invoke national security. That’s not a ground for there is a refusal of access to information. Commission. No, we are concerned with the security.
So I don’t have anything else to say concerning my situation is very clear. So I receive a message from Appel, because, it’s not a secret, I have an iPhone, and from Appel that it was possible to have such a kind of intrusion. But after verification, we didn’t find anything in the commission for the rest. There are some other people in charge of cybersecurity, not only in the , you know that we have a management board, organised to take some some decisions on on this situation.
Like, on the basis of your your recommendation: Is it possible to engage the discussion about the recommendation from us to all the member States or to do more? Because I know that in the first discussion you have explained that this may be possible to come with a legislative initiative, but you know, that may be more difficult. But so we are working on all those issues. And about the next elections, you know, that we will try to work a solid defence of democracy package.
About the rule of law. We thought it was already the case last year. We have introduced some remarks of the use, the problematic use of spyware in some member states. Of course, it’s possible that we will do the same this year. You know that we will come out with our report in in July and we will see if it’s needed to put some remarks again on such a kind of situation.
But you also said that the commission has no is not an investigative body and that you have no possibility to no ability to go on the ground. But which services have the ability, European services to go on the ground, or are we to rely only on what the member states do? And, you know, that is possible for the commission to organise investigations in the competition files, but we can not do the same for such a kind of situation. We don’t have I don’t have such a capacity as Commissioner for Justice. I’m not a prosecutor. I’m not in such a position. And so again, what we try to do is to see if the national authorities are independent bodies in charge of the data protection. All the prosecutor’s office are doing the job.
So with the regulations that are current and applicable, such as GDPR or police justice, there are some provisions. And there are provisions in the Fundamental Rights Charter and in the treaties, which are based on the primacy of EU law. The Court does not, by this, exclude certain national interventions as long as the general principles are respected.
And the second question is, there is a specific case that concerns all of us. Well, two specific gives of two Euro deputies there. There were under espionage and specifically the case of Mr. Androulakis who is an old member of the parliament, and he’s the chief of the Socialist Party in Greece.
So that’s my first question. On the basis of replies to the Commission questionnaires, do you believe that the recommendations could lead to a commission initiative to have some sort of harmonised European framework in place to guarantee legal use of this type of programme? You perhaps could try to sketch out a framework that would define such legal use.
Well, the courts cannot offer us any solution. So. You say go to the courts if it’s illegal, but you’re facing in two years of some sort of legal proceedings to try and get an answer. So in the introduction, you said that we need to strengthen the justice judiciary in the member states, make sure that they work better. Well, I think we also have to offer answers, and I would like to know what your answer would be.
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